Family and Caregiver Schizophrenia Discussion Forum

If you could choose pot instead of pills for your loved one, would you?


#41

I’m with you Dreamer1 and so is every credible book I’ve read on the subject. My son experienced the same out of control hallucinations and paranoia - it’s horrible. I hope your son gets out soon and I hope there is a way for him to not get marijuana with his disability check. Hugs and prayers


#42

And, we may have to save money so our children will have a place to live after we die. Who has that kind of money to blow? If I win the lottery, I’m in!


#43

I hear you loud and clear. Cannabis (flower/marijuana) as well as therapeutic hemp should be clearly regulated (and therapeutic targets/ailments identified) before getting the badge of “medical.” Schedule 1 stunts research and funding in the U.S. and keeps it somewhat limited to Europe and Israel.

But just because lack of regulation, don’t rule out science. Consider the studies that point to the antipsychotic and neuroprotection properties of CBD.

Reduces negative and positive symptoms with NO side effects:


CBD produced 60–69% improvement in scores on the Brief Psychiatric Rating Scale:
http://www.ukcia.org/research/CannabinoidsInBipolarAffectiveDisorder.pdf
After 1.5 years exposure to CBD, my son began “getting his memory back.” A possible neurorestoritive?
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0887233315300047

How about science that points to CBD as LOWERING the risk for psychosis?


In fact, CBD reduces the effect of THC…

Reduces anxiety…

Reduces anxiety in patients with social anxiety disorder:

Let’s consider not grouping all cannabis into the same basket. Different cannabinoids have very different effects! :slight_smile:


#44

[[quote=“SzAdmin, post:40, topic:2798”]
the amount that is being tested to produce therapeutic responses is so high (compared to existing formulations being sold) that it would cost a ton of money on a monthly basis to get the response they are seeing in clinical trials
[/quote]

Correct, especially if you consider that the Leweke/Piomelli German study in 2012 started at 200 mg. CBD and gradually ended up at 800 mg. CBD. CBD had equally positive results as the antipsychotic, amisulpride, but CBD had no side effects.


CBD is very well tolerated and no signs of toxicity or serious side effects:


Improvement of psychotic symptoms:

This is true, but incomplete. CBD at high doses is expensive, especially compared to psych meds that are free or low cost with insurance plans. Take into consideration what I found personally with my sz son:

125-250 mg. of CBD ABSOLUTELY takes the edge off of his mood and makes him easier to deal with. 300-400 mg., however did not improve things above the 250 mg. dose, and perhaps even wasn’t as good. There is a known “BELL CURVE” with cannabinoids. Sometimes less is more.

There is also a “modulated bell curve” (think rollercoaster) which is exactly what I experienced. 500-750 mg. CBD was amazing!! At 750 mg. he said he was getting his memory back. But of course, the anosognosia kicked in and he refused any treatment at all. :frowning:

Not necessarily true. Charlotte’s Web Hemp Extract is made in an FDA certified-standards lab and every batch is tested and published. Some CBD products, yes, are questionable, but not all. Use caution about lumping every CBD company as “random.” :slight_smile: BTW, I am not employed by CW Hemp. I’m a customer.

It’s a good point, though, to note the concentration issue.

You have to take a lot of Charlotte’s Web Advanced potency to equal 750 mg. CBD. Three teaspoons full, in fact. That’s a lot of oil, since CW Advanced is 95% oil, 5% extract. There’s a taste benefit, but if one uses it forever, the oil can get old. I’ve taken it almost 2 years now for depression, and it’s very helpful, and the results are worth the oil (MCT coconut oil, very healthy).

But there’s a way to solve the oil issue: add pure CBD (isolated) crystal to your standard CBD hemp oil. Yes, the COST ADDS UP. But you can take 5,000 mg. of CBD crystal, add it to your standard 100 mL bottle, and now you have 10,000 mg. CBD total in the bottle, reducing the oil you consume by 1/2 and reducing the THC percentage proportionately to the CBD.

So what price is too high for restoring mental cognition (as stated in multiple studies of impairment)?

What’s sad, is that the U.S. government helps keep the price high by keeping cannabis on Schedule 1, which stifles funding and research. The price is high, no question. But let’s not approach with an ALL-or-NOTHING limited range of possibility. All the possibility is in the “gray scale” not black-and-white. If you can afford 125 mg. of CBD per day, I think it will be helpful to take the edge off.

How about taking CBD with regular psych meds? Here’s GW Pharma reporting CBD out-performed the placebo when taken with pdoc meds:
https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2015/09/15/768364/10149367/en/GW-Pharmaceuticals-Announces-Positive-Proof-of-Concept-Data-in-Schizophrenia.html

I am not a cannabis smoker, and will never be one. But I use CBD every day, and it helps keep me from the deep sadness I feel every day watching my son suffer through this disorder. I appreciate this forum and all the discussions. It’s helped me a lot. :slight_smile:


#45

I understand that in capitalism people need to advertise everywhere and prey on desperate family members of people with illnesses.

I get that you’re just doing your job of selling marijuana to people who are harmed by marijuana. Because we all need money to live.

What you’re selling is super expensive. The science you offer is not of the quality responsible people require in order to be certain that we are not putting our loved ones at risk.

If it works, a real drug company will prove that with real trials and it will be on-label for use by people with psychosis AFTER many, many, many phases of testing, then available by prescription and paid for by insurance.


#46

Hereandthere, I apologize if my post(s) sound like a sales pitch. I’m in a totally different business, and I stated in the post that I’m not a CW Hemp employee. I’m a dad, not a marketing person. I’m a desperate family member, and I’m taking the time to share information I’ve found on my own, and share my experience, such that someone else might find some relief.

Now let’s make some distinctions here.
“Marijuana” is a nick-name for the flower/bud of the cannabis plant(s). The VAST majority of CBD products are made from hemp. Broadly speaking, hemp is just about everything on cannabis EXCEPT the bud. Marijuana is most commonly THC-dominant, and hemp is ALWAYS CBD-dominant. To be called “hemp,” the plant used to make the extract MUST be 0.3% or less THC.

The only reason I talked about Charlotte’s Web is because it’s easy to find, and there’s lots of search results on google, and it’s reliable. And it’s what I use. There are lots of excellent products out there. Here. I’ll plug other companies:
Elixinol, Mary’s Nutritionals, Pharma Drops, Trokie lozenges, Love Hemp, Herbal Renewals, Diamond CBD, just for starters. Now you know I’m not a shill for CW Hemp. Many of these companies sell PURE CBD products with no THC whatsoever. That means it’s not even close to “marijuana.”

Sc people are harmed by THC-dominant marijuana, and possibly even CBD-THC-balanced (1:1 ratio) marijuana. In my experience, my son benefitted greatly from CBD-dominant hemp, and even ACDC (a strain that is 20:1 CBD-to-THC). You could say that ACDC is one strain of “marijuana” that approaches the “hemp” category (typically around 26:1 CBD-to-THC ratio).

CBD products are not cheap. Side effects from pharma drugs aren’t desirable. Anosognosia is an absolute nightmare. Pick your battle. A small amount of CBD made a difference in my family, and a large amount made a huge difference.

I disagree. Have you met any of the doctors that study CBD? I have. These are dedicated, compassionate and earnest people trying to helps the lives of millions. If you want to look to a highly scrutinized source for clinical studies, try Wikipedia. All of the studies say more research is needed. That’s why we need the U.S. government to take cannabis off of Schedule 1, so there can be funding and research in the U.S. And I’m NOT pushing smoking anything. I want more science.

I understand your concern and I support your caring and caution. I don’t want to wait 15 years for all the many phases of testing after the government decides we should do some testing. Pure CBD products are available now with no THC. That means we’re buying CBD molecules mixed into an oil (olive or coconut is common). That’s not marijuana.

Did you know that aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) can be derived from the willow tree? CBD is tested safe up to 1,500 mg./day. Try taking 1,500 mg. of aspirin. Here’s 48 medical reviews (not just single studies) on PubMed for “cannabidiol - schizophrenia - review.” You’ll read years of work done by dedicated doctors and university leaders.

While we wait for drug companies to lobby congress so they can line their pockets with billions, we can consider comprehensive solutions NOW. Again, I support your cautious approach and resistance against “marijuana” because more cautions are absolutely needed, particularly around THC and young kids. I wish the best for our families who are taking the path that feels wise and well-advised.

But I have to say, after 5 years of dealing with my son’s illness, and all the consequences my family has endured, the psychiatrists and support groups NEVER mentioned ANOSOGNOSIA to us. I found out about it HERE thanks to @notmoses. This tells me something: psychiatrists, doctors and social workers are NOT totally up-to-speed and they sure as h_ll leave the families out in the cold about many aspects of schizophrenia and how to best deal with it. Being HERE has made a huge difference for me because this site offered MORE information. That’s all I’m trying to do. All the best to your family. :slight_smile:


#47

Thank you for the information. I do think it would be a whole lot easier to get them to be compliant on CBD. I agree with you on Benzos being dangerous and wish research was not so slow on this.

Does CBD reduce your sons psychosis and delusions? Has your son been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia? If not, what is official diagnosis? Does his doctor know he is using cbd and has he agreed and documented a positive change. This is what our Pdoc said he is waiting for. He hears from others and then recommends.

There is no doubt that THC is bad for my son and his psychosis but he swears it is calming. He tried the cbd oil but it took so much and was less effective after the first time. I don’t thing I got near the dosage you mentioned. He himself mentioned getting the crystal but I was afraid because he was in sites in China and I can’t condone those.

Our Pdoc said a lot of his patients use cannabis.


#48

@Mom2 You’re welcome, and I hope we all make a difference for each other! I acknowledge @Hereandhere who was standing up for the integrity of this forum, thus giving me a bit of an opportunity to clarify my intentions - which stem from our common need for help and relief.

Yes, taking out the element of objections over the pharma side effects should make it a better choice. But we don’t know how universal CBD is when you throw in all the variables: age, gender, extent of severity, diet, emotional issues… and whether or not any particular person does or doesn’t have the anosognosia (not having ANY idea that something is wrong). I’m still trying to figure out how to deal with that.

We also don’t know to what extent there may be any neuroregeneration, such that over time, the anosognosia and psychosis would lessen, thereby increasing the person’s chances of recovery and healthier socialization.

At 750 mg. CBD per day my son had 90% reduction of negative symptoms and 15% reduction of positive symptoms. According to the medical studies, the delusions should have kept getting less over time.

We took a 3 month period to titrate him off the psych meds and raise the CBD dose. He was originally diagnosed bipolar 5 years ago, and about 2 years ago moved to just straight diagnosis of schizophrenia. I only had moderate faith in the pdoc. 20 minute appointments don’t make a thorough evaluation or establish any connection of trust or motivation.

This pdoc knew I had my son taking CBD but knew nothing about the science, and told me I would make him worse. He had the usual incomplete understanding of “medical marijuana” and wouldn’t listen to me explain the difference between “pot” and therapeutic CBD. But after all, he had plenty of patients coming back to him on a regular basis. Why should he look into something that might lessen his clientele? I gave him print-outs of studies and he never acknowledged looking at them. We stopped seeing him before he could see the difference in my son. But everyone around my family clearly saw the change and loved it.

My family has been using CBD for close to 2 years. My son’s mother and I use it to remedy depression and sadness (instead of lexapro), my mother uses it for mental clarity and pain relief, a couple friends I know use it to relieve migraine headaches and restless leg syndrome.

But people with bp/sz family members all come up to the same blockade: cost, patient’s anosognosia, and resistance to trying something different long enough to really see the change. We don’t have “automatically compliant” children, the way the people who have epileptic kids do. We’re mostly dealing with people who are over-21 who are NOT easily compelled into taking great supplemental remedies.

THC was horrible for my son, and it was central in causing 4 of his hospitalizations.

See the problem is: how potent was the CBD oil? Different brands vary a lot. The key is how many milligrams of CBD are in each serving of the product. Just like if you get aspirin or vitamins. You first note the milligrams. Same with CBD. In Charlotte’s Web (sorry @Hereandhere) they have 3 potencies, and the most potent version has 50 mg. CBD per 1 mL serving. That’s the key.

You have to be consistent with CBD. It’s not a narcotic that you just take once and your illness is gone. Also if your loved one was using any THC product around the same time as the CBD, that could have altered the efficacy of the CBD. THC stays in the system, and you have to build up the CBD over time for it to hold. You wouldn’t take two doses of vitamin C and expect to be resistant to colds forever - right?

You don’t want to just jump into a strong dose, either. Start at 125-200 mg. CBD per day for a couple weeks and see how things go. Start by taking the edge off, and then proceed as you can afford. As @SzAdmin said, it’s expensive (especially compared to low cost insurance-covered pharma meds). If you can afford it, you can be a trail blazer. Consistency is king. Anyone with diabetes will agree.

Crystal has to be mixed in oil China makes a lot because they are allowed to grow hemp. Some U.S. states are waking up to the fact that a lot of money can be made here by growing hemp. Look for places in Colorado, Oregon or England for suppliers. EMPHASIS: do the math to see how much any given product costs per milligram of CBD. The volume of liquid doesn’t matter. It’s the amount of the active ingredient per serving that counts.

If a bottle of CBD oil costs $60 and it has 300 mg. total CBD and it has 30 servings @ 1 mL per serving, then 300 mg. divided by 30 servings = 10 mg. per 1 mL serving. That’s not very potent but it’s a start. (1 mL = a little less than 1/4 teaspoon)

Next take the $60 and divide it by the 300 mg. = 20 cents per milligram of CBD. That’s EXPENSIVE! Look for closer to 10 cents or less per milligram. For mental wellbeing, I would stick to a serving that has 50 mg. of CBD in them, otherwise you’ll have more oil than the Canadian tarsands. CBD oil is best used sub-lingually. It’s also antibacterial so it’s good for dental health. Just let it soak into the gums. Swallowing it directly is much less effective.

This raises a question for me, only because “cannabis” is such a broad term. Are the pdoc patients using CBD-THC-balanced (1:1 ratio) cannabis? THC dominant cannabis? CBD dominant cannabis?

Plus remember, HEMP is cannabis (everything but the flower/bud) and “marijuana” (the bud) is cannabis. Best to stick with hemp because it’s always CBD-dominant. In order for anything to be called hemp, it must be 0.3% or less THC (dry weight). That tells you there’s NO HIGH. There’s no psychosis. There’s no possibility of overdose or “gateway drug” possibility. The CBD scientists spell out the safety and efficacy. The THC is a nightmare unless you have cancer, Tourette syndrome, other kinds of pain, loss of appetite, glaucoma, etc.

I really hope we can get specifics into the “lingo” about cannabis and hemp. Words matter. Disambiguation is HUGE which is why the more we know, the more we can get to the best treatments possible. Thank you for enduring my novel! :slight_smile:


#49

Thank you for writing it. Best of luck to all of us here trying to figure it out on a daily basis. Every day is different that is certain.


#50

Thank you for the good science-oriented posting with lots of good links to academic studies. That is the type of information that I think is most valuable to people here.

While its still, in my opinion, early in this area of research - the studies do definitely show some positive results that are noteworthy. Everyone will find their own level of evidence that they find convincing - everyone has their own risk/reward profile.

But this is a good way to have a positive discussion and get the science out there.


#51

I can only speak what I’ve observed in my daughter – when she uses pot her paranoia gets worse. She stopped using it about 5 years ago. Her paranoia is pretty bad now but as far as I know it nothing to do with pot.


#52

I wonder if the PDoc had a medical opinion on the use of it (pot) and mental Heath problems.

Addiction is another monkey on the back. It takes sobriety to appreciate its burden and the freedom of sobriety.


#53

Thc has been a blessing for treating akathasia and dystonia
Where there’s research for CBD for schizophrenia
We use both thc and cbd in high quantities
It’s been an amazing full spectrum plant
What works for some may not work for others…
We put all out intention before consuming the medicine
Supposibly you can transform the energy the plant permeates and make it more healing for your needs.
I don’t like some psychiatrist…I’ve only had bad experiences with them as sometimes they only make things worst
I think everybody should do tons of research for themselves
A lot of it is trial and error
See for yourself what works best


#54

Same here, smoking marijuana cause uncontrollable voices and paranoia in my 46-,-year-old son.

He stopped smoking totally by his own choice.

maple woman


#55

Very much the same situation with my son, unfortunately, @VermontWoman1. Marijuana has precipitated each of his episodes. I can only hope he’ll one day stop smoking by choice. I would not ever choose pot over pills.


#56

Relief (covering up) is different from actually helping the person by minimizing or changing effects of the illness through medication proven to have good results at least for a significant number of persons with this illness (most likely an AP) specific to this type of illness, sometimes through ECT, and/or through talk therapy.