I may be able to start having a bit more contact with my loved one as he has started using a phone again and I now have his number.
I need to think about how to approach a transitioning conversation with him I will want to use the leap technique but to be honest I haven’t practiced it in a long time.
Basically I need the conversation to include important details like he will not be able to remain in the current living situation he’s in .
most likely my father is needing to sell the home that he had been staying in and besides that the city will not allow him to go back to the home the way it is.
I guess I’m needing to try to talk him into getting a social worker himself, not somebody else making a report on him and him refusing services, like him actually needing to go and apply himself and to start thinking about finding a low income housing situation for himself ,figuring out what to do with a mountain of possessions that he has nowhere to put and how can he part with some and just keep what he needs.
Of course I cannot bombard him with all these things it would be to overwhelming! so if anyone is good at LEAP what would a starting conversation look like here?
When I used LEAP, it was on only one subject at a time, repeated daily one sentence conversations until there was progress through all of the steps to a partnership on that subject. I started with what I thought was vital at that time: getting her to take a dinner plate from me each night as she wasn’t eating and had sunk down to skin and bones. SHE didn’t think she needed to eat what I prepared. So I started with “Are you hungry right now? I have a plate of dinner for you.” She kept me standing outside her door with food for about a week before she finally opened her locked door to take the plate from me. Then it happened every night, just the same.
Your conversation is tougher, by far. But whatever your conversation begins with, the goal is to get him to talk to you so you can listen to his concerns about that one subject. Since you are living at a distance from him, I would start with something like “Where is he living currently?, how did you end up there?” You will find out how logical or illogical he is about his living situation if he answers. He may be unable to answer logically. As more conversations happen (I recommend daily phone calls with the same question/conversation repeated so you can listen to him.) Later on, probably not the first conversation, or even 2nd or 3rd, the key will be to get him to undersand “Do you know Dad has to sell that house?”
In the future, I wonder if he is even capable of conversations with a social worker? My daughter would be homeless if I hadn’t provided the solutions, she never originated conversations with any government agency or doctor. She couldn’t have. She was incapable of logical thinking about basic living problems. I had to do all that for her. She wasn’t able anymore of those kinds of “adult” conversations. Her mindset was that of a 12 year old once her illness started.
If he understands he cannot go back to the house your father owns, then maybe he will understand he needs to find a new place, but he may be totally incapable of planning that.
Thank you it is hard being at a distance but I know it’s also hard to be right there as I have done both.
9 years ago he had a really bad psychosis break and ended up in jail and hospitalized and multiple inpatient units at that point I had been able to walk him through the different steps and into some housing situations where he had roommates using leap.
It did end in him having to pack a truck and go back to my parents house in another state. So I guess kind of what I’ve discovered over the last 28 years is he really can’t live with a roommate but he also can’t live on his own.
I think maybe an ideal situation would be his own apartment with a caretaker which is what I would try to like to help facilitate the perfect situation of course what we’re all looking for.
What you said is helpful about remembering to do the repeated. Right now I’m just on the empathizing and listening, but even in doing those steps I realized a little bit more about where his mind is at right now and there’s not a whole lot of clear thoughts.
He’s ended up with my dad again at my dad’s friend’s home that is going to have to be a very temporary situation.
I’ve gotten my book back out I’m not sick and I’m watching the videos again.
From what I’ve been told he will never be mandated to take medication in the state he’s in Nevada I’ve been told by the social workers there the police his therapist the most team that that is against his rights to order medication.
My thoughts are maybe eventually if he will see a doctor again could be a work around because he does recognize he has PTSD and maybe would accept some treatment there CBT therapy or something.
My experience with my brother, now in his 60s, is that after I suggest an important topic, he has a torrent of thoughts about it. Until I listen to all of them, and repeat back to him, using his words, the profound gist of what he just said, I can’t get a word in edgewise. But sometimes he goes quiet and then I can talk. When that window opens, I use what I think the LEAP method advocates–I ask him if I can tell him what I think. Once he says yes, he listens. I make it brief.
Another thing I do often is to follow the old adage “two to glow, one to grow.” That is, I try to praise him for two things I know he does that take effort–“Wow, you got through this very hot weather like a trooper, and I also think it’s great that you collect your mail every day so it doesn’t build up for the mailman.” Then I slowly advance into the harder topic. Don’t know if that’s LEAP or from somewhere else. And of course, I don’t tell him I’m doing that…
The housing situation you describe needing to sort out with your loved one sounds difficult. As oldladyblue said, he may not
come to the right conclusion on his own, but he could conclude that you are being his advocate and helper in a tough situation and that you can guide him to a solution, providing he feels seen and heard by you and therefore trusts you.
I love that !!!2 to glow one to grow I will try to work that in .
Your right he sometimes views me as an advocate at least in the past and sometimes not .
Thank you
Hi @megmeg . I agree that the living situation might be best on his own with a caregiver roommate. Or at least someone that he accepts to “check on him” often. Maybe by suggesting medicine for PTSD, he would accept medicine that is also good for schizophrenia.
You reminded me that my daughter’s awareness of her brain being missing some white matter made her willing to accept medicine for schizophrenia without recognizing she HAS schizophrenia. Per her, she has ESP and voices that were real out of body spirits talking to her. But, she accepted the medicine for her brain birth defect, not for her voices, when explained by her doctor.
The psychiatrist also said “this medicine may help you to hold your job” building on her strong desire to work and earn extra money.
So what worked, was that she was NEVER told the medicine was for schizophrenia, but for her brain malformation and to boost her ability to not get fired again.
ONLY after 4 years of injected medicine did she recognize her psychotic episodes years ago. I recently told her once that her medicine was for schizophrenia. She just looked at me funny, didn’t even comment to me on that, and never brought it up to talk about. But she talked to her voices about her mom saying weird things… she still talks quietly to her voices, sometimes passing me messages from them. I just listen.
Well done. I think we have to do whatever it takes and whatever works! But first we have to really know and empathize with our loved ones, which takes trying to get into their heads and using some imagination ourselves. Hence the magic of LEAP.
That’s promising to hear her community of providers and family were able to orchestrate the med compliance ,
That’s the dream to have that team working together .
no matter if it was for a brain defect or something else.
My brother had been denied disability several times he was applying due to back issues. it wasn’t until myself and father wrote a letter on his behalf my letter gave an account history of MI beginning at the age of 16 he was the given a psych eval and was approved .
He may still believe somewhat because of back issues.
Brilliantly put. The listening part is so key isn’t it? While I know we would all like to be able to guide conversations toward the results we would like, the reality is we have to do as @kwillkat writes - Get into their heads and use some imagination to make magic with LEAP.
I filled out all of the paperwork for my son’s disability application - he believed I was applying for disability based on his kidney transplant. Mike loved President Obama. I told Mike that President Obama was changing the rules to make it possible for people with kidney transplants to get help. At first he thought he was just getting medical insurance to pay for his transplant immunosuppressives and nephrology bills.
The social security assigned to his case told me he had to appear in person to sign paperwork in order for the benefits to start. She handled him beautifully. First she got him right back into her office. She told him that they thought it would be best for me to represent him and would he sign and agree? After he signed she said she needed to go over some things with me and he was free to go wait for me in the car.
Next I told him that his caseworker had said she was going to try to get his student loans forgiven. He was pleased when that worked out as well.
Later when his psychiatrist called and said she was worried about Mike’s delusions endangering his dad, I told Mike he had to move out but I had called the social security caseworker and she had arranged for him to receive monthly rent money and said he could also get food benefits (SNAP). He was so relieved.
One time during the cancer years a nurse was puzzled during check in for a port installation procedure and asked him if he was disabled. He became uncomfortable and said “I guess so”. She asked “how are you disabled?” He turned to me and said “do you want to handle that?” I responded with two words- “it’s personal” and she dropped the subject immediately.
Being around Mike was always a tricky business. LEAP made everything possible, getting him to see a psychiatrist for a year by promising him an all expenses paid trip to Colorado - was after listening to him and realizing it was a dream of his- that was how we got him diagnosed in the first place.
Well yesterday was quite a hard day ! My father was told by the HOA board of directors they were evicting him out of his home and proceeding with a foreclosure he has seven days to evacuate.
The reason for this is because of the destruction that my brother has caused at the home basically hoarding the front yard backyard and other stuff in the house.
And complaints about his behavior.
It’s one of those times when no one has the energy or brain power to fight anymore.
Of course this was a massive trigger for my brother so I ended up speeding up a couple of my steps and leap yesterday still listening empathizing but then adding some reality.
My brother has felt that he’s been living with my parents for the last 12 years and he assumes that he’s been paying a rent to own which has never been true.
He doesn’t recognize the destruction and Chaos that his actions brought were the cause of this situation.
I’m trying just to meet where he’s at and talk with him about steps to move forward .he can pull together sometimes during a situation with police or mental health professionals . what I’m hoping for is that he can pull together to take some of the next steps to ensure housing and help for himself which I will try to be walking him through.
So I sent some carefully worded text because at this point when on the phone with him I just have to listen to what he’s saying I can’t really get a word in edgewise.
After dozens of texts and about 3 hours worth of phone calls listening to him yesterday it seems he had calmed a bit and was starting to think about the next steps.
Unfortunately I will be trying my hardest but I’m also clueless as to whether he will actually be able to receive help.
It looks like all the housing lists are closed where he’s at .
I want this to be a streamlined and painless as possible so that he doesn’t get sidetracked in the process I really hope something works
@oldladyblue , hello friend , it has to be one of the most difficult tasks in the world when we feel like we have a massive wall surrounding us and all we get is a little book for a tool and the “map” is the advice being shouted down to us by the psychiatrists, therapists, Family to Family, Dr Amador and the other people who made it up the wall in the past.
Your experience is valuable on the forum. While we are happy for the people who reach your success, and we totally understand why they have moved on in their lives, your voice of sustained success holds promise.
@megmeg Before the sheriff was offering a hospital as an option, is that still available?
Keep in mind that you and Dad do know your brother the best, listen to what Dad says as well and have confidence in your thought process while also considering other options that may seem undoable. I think it is hard to know when to accept the advice of the peripherals involved - (sheriff, psychiatric team, social workers) and when to discard. If our family members want something, they will work hard to make it happen.
My son had wanted to be an Uber driver because having a job was important to him. His dad and I totally shot that idea down hard when he approached us with it. When his psychiatrist called and let me know that she felt it was possible as he was a good driver and because the passengers would be different people each day so he couldn’t build up the workplace delusions as he had done in the past with coworkers.
We agreed to supply a car as long as his work hours were limited - when he had worked in the past he would work as much overtime as possible and would get stressed out. He went along with the limitation of earning $200 a month and it all worked out well.
That’s great the job worked out so well for your dear son .
I believe it can have such a healthy impact to be working or volunteering a part of something routine .
My brother hasn’t officially worked in years but has had odd side gigs off and on before my mom passed, he was helping with some construction stuff, occasional odd jobs for neighbors and helped my mom run an ebay account . I always feel when he’s been able to do these tasks it has helped .
When he’s well enough he is mechanically minded and great at fixing things .and usually willing to jump in and help if he see someone in need.
To answer if the hospital is still an option ?
Sure if he will voluntarily wants to do that , but it will not stop the foreclosure process .
I’ve just been able to speak with a connection through the mobile crisis team
I’ve learned they have been reaching out every 2wks to offer services and he keeps refusing .
So Im glad I got to talk with him to be on the same page in hopes to relay the message to my brother.
They would offer evaluation for competency if he then could offer a legal guardian , and assisted outpatient in a group home
This sounds ideal but most likely is not his idea of ideal . he would need to be med compliant and possible cbt therapy.
Im thinking of work arounds for the parts I know he will hate
and also thinking about him getting a case manager through human service .
@megmeg , as an outsider looking in on the situation, I honestly am more worried about your father. Does he have a place to stay worked out and an option for the future? If your brother has caused the eviction by his hoarding and lack of willingness to get treatment, your father is getting the worst of it right now.
@hope thank you for your response and understanding. I have sometimes felt that I shouldn’t be on the forum anymore as my daughter’s recovery seems nothing short of a series of miracles and I don’t want to irritate others who haven’t seen as much success in their own lives despite doing their best. It is a hard war to fight: for another’s sanity.
@oldladyblue, please don’t even think about departing the forum: it is you who may not be getting much from the rest of us at this stage. Your presence is a gift.
We with loved ones who don’t accept treatment, or aren’t being treated sufficiently to lead something close to normal lives, need to hear positive news and success stories. We need to keep up with advances in treatment and understanding of this disorder. That is the only way to maintain hope.
You and me both,
I’m extremely concerned for the situation my brother’s mental illness has put my dad in not only has it been like living in a war zone for for much of the time over the last 6 years since my mom passed ,he’s also had to deal and his own serious health issues congestive heart failure.
All while trying to pick himself up again out of the trenches over and over.
He’s done the best he can by my brother for most of my life he’s tried to keep the peace but never really reached out for professional help for himself he’s tried to maintain a safe space for himself and my brother it just simply hasn’t worked out there’s been multiple times when my dad has called in law enforcement for help and he’s been told he would be the one needed to leave his own property.
I’m sure that many of us have been through this horrific cycle I sometimes think of schizophrenia as the cartoon Tasmanian devil blowing through and wreaking havoc. And we are left to try to pick up the pieces.
To answer the question yes my dad had found a safe place to stay with a good friend of his also a senior that is not in the greatest shape but they do fine if they’re left to care for themselves my dad had left his home over a month ago because it had become too hard to deal with my brother he was checking in on him daily while still being able to care for himself at his friends home.
Unfortunately after a few weeks the city had decided to come through and put the condemnation on the house they had given my brother 7 days to try to fix a repair some of the massive problems which of course he was not able to they came back only after 4 days because of neighbors reporting problems they live in a h o a neighborhood.
At that point my brother was told he had to leave after the 4 days because there wasn’t enough progress and it was unsafe for him to be there they offered him a choice of going to the hospital jail or he could just leave on his own that is what he did he made his way to my dad’s friend’s house and has been with them ever since so as you can imagine it’s been extremely stressful again for my dad.
I think that both my dad and brother are extremely strong people to even just get up another day and try!
We all have different stories and even though we’ve all been through much of the same some of our Journeys look different.
Even though I’m newish to this group your transparency with your journey and your daughter’s Journey has been very helpful!! So I would like to thank you for sharing here I truly believe that what makes the Forum so great and supportive!!! is sharing our Journeys and just hearing something from someone else’s May trigger something for one of us to try something different anyways thank you very much.
, it has to be one of the most difficult tasks in the world when we feel like we have a massive wall surrounding us and all we get is a little book for a tool and the “map” is the advice being shouted down to us by the psychiatrists, therapists, Family to Family, Dr Amador and the other people who made it up the wall in the past.