A thought for water and toilet issues that’s a bit drastic is to resort to primitive off-grid solutions. The bucket and bag toilet is a simple toilet some campers and off grid folk use. It has the advantage that’s is cheap, simple, requires no water and is arguable easier to deal with compared to your present situation.
Shut the water off, block off the existing toilet somehow, hand him a bucket and maybe a jug of water to wash up with. Bottled water for drinking, maybe an outside hose shower if he’s lucky. There’s no consequence or inconvenience for him in your present scenario, so maybe you need to add friction and discomfort to his life rather than allowing him to bring them to yours. There are more elaborate systems like composting or incinerating toilets, but in this case I think cheap and simple might be a better approach.
He is 30 now. Usually only answers questions with a grunt, he once said God talks to him when water is running. I think it drowns out voices. We had a noise maker , but he didn’t like it. The toilet issue is juat recently, but getting worse.,
Maggotbrane,
Maybe you can help me understand what is going on here. I have tried consequences with my brother. I have had my moms aide not go there for a month.
the toilet was filled with poop, there was poop on the floor, on his clothes and it did not seem to bother him at all. he would walk around with poop on him and this does not cause him to be the least bit bothered. he comes to my moms house like that and then when he is told to change his clothes, he just sticks his fingers in his ears and pretends that he does not hear. Do you think this is all about control? t=this is going on in his apartment NOT my moms house. But he does not flush the toilet in her house either. Do you think it is because of a voice telling him not to flush?
I feel like there is nothing I can do to make him uncomfortable. I also feel like because my mom’s house is so close, that I am hostage to whatever he does. I cannot have him evicted from his apartment because he CANNOT live with my mom under any circumstances. So I have the aide clean up after him because I do not want any trouble with his landlord. So… if you were me, what would you do???
It’s difficult to speak for your brother, my experience leans toward paranoid delusional systems, but I have some thoughts.
I don’t think voices play as central a role in our dictating lives as caregivers might think. For me they’ve served more as distractors, narrators, advisors and oracles than overlords. Since they’re the most salient feature of schizophrenia, it may be understandable or comforting to anthropomorphize them as possessing or controlling the sufferer, but I feel they’re more a symptom, expression or explanation of aberrant thinking. Think of them as additional internal narrators to explain chaotic thinking processes clamoring for attention from our beleaguered ego center.
I generally discourage caregivers from thinking of their charges as regressing toward childhood, but your brother’s sanitary behavior and finger-in-the-ears ignoring of conformity is childish. You ask if this is about control and of course it is— you want to control his behavior that he isn’t bothered by and sees no need to change. Best I can tell you’re offering no tangible incentives or disincentives for him, so no change. Withholding his aide as a “consequence” seems self-defeating, because it only serves to further degrade conditions in the apartment which you’ve established he’s not bothered by and likely cannot or will not comprehend the consequences of inevitable eviction.
What to do? First, I’d stop framing this as a mental health issue and set aside hope of reasoning with him. It’s a behavioral issue. If he were a child or someone with dementia or recovering from a stroke, you’d approach this differently. I’d look to things that motivate him, and avoid assumptions they’ll necessarily align with your values and come up with some sort of behavioral adjustment program with help from occupational therapists if these resources are available. Beyond that, I’d look to containment of damage caused by his behavior as you’ve been doing with the aide. Long term, I’d look to minimal robust housing for him on land that I owned. Say an off-grid cabin, tiny home or shed or mobile home with an outhouse privy and very little to go wrong. Sort of a lower cost version of GSSP’s solution for his wife (search the forum, he’s not here much and I don’t want to bug him by @ -ing him)
If you are saying my brother’s issue is behavioral, then if I could find something that “motivates”
him, then he may flush the toilet? So he did not forget how to do that, but is just doing it because he is lazy? If I could think of something that would motivate him, how would I even phrase that?
Like maybe I could offer him cigarettes? He may be motivated by that. But I wonder why he would change his behavior ? It seems like he would clearly have the advantage because he knows that I want him to change. He seems to get cigarettes from people on the street. He has no money to purchase anything.
Good job @j9sit ! Cigarettes can be a great motivator for our family members. Our Family to Family teacher said that nicotine can be a form of self medication for our family members.
I apologize in advance for anyone who is offended, BUT, you might find some peace for yourself if you answer this and similar questions with the mantra “its because he has a brain disorder” -that worked really well for my husband. Each time my frustrated husband would ask me “why” questions in regards to my son, I would just say “because he has a brain disorder”.
Okay, now you are wondering why that would be offensive - its because what I actually said to my husband was not “brain disorder”. Feel free to message me privately if you can’t figure out what word I actually used.
I would offer it like a straight up bribe. No condemnation of your brother in this conversation when you speak with him.( Hey, I have siblings, this can be hard for a sibling) Respectfully say “Here’s the deal if you…you will get…” hopefully your offer will catch his interest. Whatever the deal is, stick with it and set small goals at first.
Does he have a phone? Could he take a picture of his toilet and show it to your mom on his daily visits to receive a day’s ration of cigarettes? Phone pictures have dates on them. Is your mom up to this sort of task?
Another thought I had was a kitchen garbage can in the bathroom where he could deposit his trash - since he is already in the habit of heading into the bathroom with his garbage.
Can pocket money be involved? Is there a reason he can’t have pocket money?
This would be a huge win for your side if you can broker a deal that solves your problem. Try not to think of him having the advantage. We all work long and hard to find something we can use to motivate our family members. I hope this might be the thing that works for your situation.
Hi. Thank you all for sharing your stories. My loved one is over 40. Over 20 years now, and only 29 blessed days this year of medication and stability, an evaluation, and a name: SZ. Then refusal to continue medication, refusal to seek anymore help. Anosognosia. The nightmare continues. Right now, I’m reading and reading and reading, hoping I have the strength to become the caretaker my loved one needs. Maybe some day I’ll be more comfortable sharing more details of my story. But I just wanted to add my voice. I am exhausted and overwhelmed, but I’m here.
@Hermanita,I am glad you have found us and are here. I totally understand. Sometimes when our circumstances have us exhausted and overwhelmed, we just need to have some sort of voice.
Sorry for the delay in my response, I have a lot going on at present and have been traveling.
There’s a branch of psychology called behaviorism whose premise is animal and some human behavior is learned and can be changed with conditioning and reinforcement. I took an undergrad behaviorism psychology class in college. The class was unusual because it and its work books employed concepts of behaviorism. It was self paced with optional lectures, but with extensive mandatory labs where you took the role of subject, observer, and interpreter of experiments, some of which were conducted in social settings. Long time forum members may recall me mentioning that I sort of “rolled my own” Cognitive Behavior Therapy during my recovery, and I credit this class with giving me some of the tools to attempt these efforts.
I’ve muddied the waters of understanding by using less formal language to describe conditioning in terms of “motivation”. Strict behaviorism grew out of animal studies like Pavlov’s dogs and studies of rats and pigeons and such, so methods tend to ignore notions of emotional internal states or motivation, because researchers question whether these exist for animals or are relevant to modify human behavior. To a behaviorist, you modify behaviors by reinforcing them with systems of rewards and punishment—so called positive and negative reinforcement which is terminology that’s crept into popular vernacular. They may model new behaviors or shape new ones by substituting and rewarding desirable behaviors. The ethics and efficacy of negative reinforcement are often questioned, so many trainers only practice positive reinforcement under the premise that punishment is ineffective unless it is understood by the subject, and physically harming punishment should be avoided. So in many situations, outside of sensitization training, negative behaviors are simply ignored, or timeouts are employed as negative reinforcement. Many of these approaches are building blocks of shaping human behaviors in advertising, social media and gaming (especially video games); the trick is they are often hidden rather than overt.
What I’m suggesting is a level of detachment may be required and tying yourself up in knots trying to understand internal thought processes and trying to reason with your subject to change behavior may be a fruitless pursuit. It’s somewhat akin to psychoanalyzing a child as potty training. The child may misinterpret the attention and process a myriad of ways and you’ll get no closer to your goal. Simple and consistent reinforcement methods and avoidance of unintended motivators like emotional negative attention and assumptions that the subject shares your goals, way of thinking and values, may improve your chances of success.
Great suggestions. Your insight and knowledge is phenomenal. In my simple brain, this (attempt to control the behavior) is essentially the LEAP (“I Am Not Sick: I Don’t Need Help” by Dr. Xavier Amador) approach to getting a person to do what YOU want for reasons that HE wants.
There is a fabulous amount of data on this thread, for those caregiving to an unmedicated person with schizophrenia. I wondered where the thread went, as it was going for quite some time, and was my first introduction to this site years ago now. I am sure there are more people who need help with their unmedicated loved one. So I wanted to post on it to bring it to life again.
Hello Hermantia
It’s been 5 years with my son. He only took medicine twice for a very short time It’s been 3 years and no medicine. . He is 25 years old and lives in his own apartment.
We live in the same town. I have learned it’s one day at a time with our loved one. I continue to keep the hope alive and trust the process.
Thankful that he is not suicidal. If you would like to talk over the phone, let me know.
Blessings to you and your loved one.
All of this indicates PATIENTS NEED TREATMENT AND SUPPORT. Whatever that means, no one and no ones families deserve what we have gone through. If they cannot advocate for themselves, Why do lawmakers and policy enforcers think that they (the patients, are unable to recognize their own poor state) are somehow able to care for themselves. It is horrible but, while my brother would do things with prompting, I stopped. He could not and does not make food until someone prompts him. He does not clean his teeth or brush his hair or facial hair unless someone tells him. He looked disgusting before his last civil comittment and my parents cannot take care of him anymore. I have to choose between helping them everyday of fending off his abuse. No more.
He is finally in long-term facilities and will never be able to move in with his usual caretakers (my parents, who are ill and with 1 who has their own mental health issues that will decompensate with enough stress.) We got this and so much other evidence before a judge, social worker, and a long list of names (that we were not able to talk to but who had to provide his patient records due to a subpoena). It has been hellish but I have hope. We called police (very familiar with our address) and paramedics when he smelled disgusting and we proved that, left to his own devices with my parents as caregivers (and without me) he is an absolute hazard to himself. This, an inability to care for self SHOULD be the minimum category for some sort of involuntary screening and treatment, especially with family who are aware of his situation given more precedence in ensuring commitment. NAMI has pushed for this for years with little effect.
While they could not put him in jail (and I wouldn’t want them to), I have everything in place to build another case against him for harassment and assult/abuse. He will never be in a position to be outside a mental hospital with full commitment for the criminally insane if I have my way.
I am glad @Dianders that your son accepts your help and is doing better.
@Wederington034985 Oftentimes late at night when things are quiet in my home, I think of those going through stressful times with their unmedicated (or unsuccessfully medicated) unstable loved ones. I know the pain, and am lucky enough that those awful times ended for my family. I keep hoping that those who are severely disturbed will accept a bit of help from their caregivers and not get violent. I am lucky that my daughter was never truly violent in a big way and that her interactions with the police led to her recovery to a new life. You have your brother where he cannot hurt anyone else, and where, maybe, he will find help. It must still be incredibly hard for you after these hard times: that great emotional toll on your family. What you have dealt with! (the courts, the hospitals and the police). I respect your toughness and your resolve to protect your parents and your preparation for your brother’s possible continued de-volution. I’m sorry. Hugs.
I know exactly what you’re talking about the growling my son already had a deep voice, but the growlers a little spooky. He’s in a hospital right now under a Bay correct I think they’re going to court order him to get a shot. He lives with me.
Oh @Knows3939 , thank you for letting us know your son is in the hospital and may get court ordered medicine. Honestly, I feel totally sure that my daughter would STILL be in her bedroom at night screaming in different voices because of the invisible people who took over her mind if it wasn’t for the court ordered long-acting shot she took and is still on. I hope the nightmare ends for your son. Hugs.
Hello, I’m new to this group. This is my first time posting. I realize this is an older thread, but I’ve found comfort in reading past comments. I have a 19 year old daughter that we believe has schizophrenia. She’s been hospitalized twice in the last six months. The first was involuntary and the second was voluntary. She has a preliminary diagnosis of schizophrenia. She does not believe she’s sick and refuses to take medication. She’s currently living in her car, spent all of her savings on stupid stuff, lost her job and has spent a week in jail. She’s alienated all of hers friends and wants nothing to do with anyone in our family.
Honestly, this is all so very overwhelming for me. I love my daughter and we’ve always been close. She’s a completely different person since she had her first psychosis. It’s like her whole personality is opposite of what it used to be. We know that she’s been smoking marijuana and has been caught underage drinking previously. Her friends have told us that she’d started taking acid somewhat regularly. We suspect that might be what triggered the schizophrenia.
I’m terrified that she is either going to hurt herself or someone else. We’ve contacted the police multiple times. They agree that something is wrong, but she answers their answers correctly so they can’t force her to be evaluated. Honestly, I’m not sure that would even help. She already been in two mental hospitals. Both times they gave her medication and released her. We need for the court to order a longer stay and very likely medication compliance.
I just wanted to say I’m praying for all of the families affected by this horrible disease. I’m embarrassed to say that prior to October I only had a very limited understanding of the disease and never thought about how painful it is for family members.
