I think you did the right thing by calling the police. If she’s been drinking, and especially if she’s driving on a flat tire, there is a clear danger here.
Hopefully this will get her into treatment.
Blessings,
Anthony
Thanks Pixel, I will turn it all over and let it go…
Let us know what happens.
Hopefully they do find her and evaluate her. She needs help even if she doesn’t know it. The longer she goes untreated and in this state the more damage may be happening in her brain.
Taoist; you did the right thing. There’s only so much you can do without proper intervention and you didn’t even have to lie…although I wouldn’t blame you if you had resorted to that. Ultimately, when people aren’t aware that there is something wrong with them, the task of getting them the help they need is impossible; I’d rather lie to get the person I care about help than not and watch them disintegrate.
I would caution against letting it get to this stage again; you need to preserve your own sanity and you should not be letting this affect your relationship with your kids to this extent. Resorting to putting in headphones so you can escape, being prevented from sleep and having your employment jeopardised…there’s only so long you can keep that up for without serious consequences.
I’ve noticed in this thread a lot of pro-lie people, usually on the caregiver/family side.
Do you realize that the core issue with this disease is truth? Schizophrenics live in a state of constant reality checking. Our minds tell us things that aren’t true and we struggle to find what’s real. Delusions and hallucinations are at heart lies of the mind.
We cling to whatever truth we can find and when the ones we love and trust lie it helps erode the grasp we have on reality. You may have good intentions but you don’t understand the disease and don’t realize how damaging lying to and about us can be.
I like to use the term embellish rather than lie. As caregivers, we can see the severity of the situation when our loved ones can’t. To have our loved ones committed is a decision not taken lightly, and is perhaps one of the most difficult decisions we ever have to make. It is heart wrenching. We must follow whatever process is going to ultimately help our loved ones.
Before any decision to commit is made we have to weigh the pros and cons, I always do. Each time my husband and I have had our son committed, things had reached the “boiling point”. Our son has desperately needed help at those times, but the courts typically require the ultimate in what they consider a “danger”, I suspect to cover themselves legally.
I ask you to take a step back and try to see things from the caregiver’s perspective. And as a side note, I don’t believe my son was or is even aware of exactly what went on with the commitment process and doesn’t seem to care. Each time after he has been released stable from the hospital he has thanked me. Our love and commitment to him is unwavering and I believe he knows that. This is the most important thing in my opinion.
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Hi Malvok7,
I agree with you about how lying and how it erodes the trust with anyone’s reality. I always try to put myself in some else’s shoes and develop attempt to build a degree of empathy. In my case I have ADD and often my memory is not good since the affliction often prevents input from reaching me. For instance, if someone told me to meet them at a certain time and the information does not get to me, I usually will get condemned for it. I will put up a defense such as ‘you didn’t tell me that’, but often they are right and I will agree that at least they told me. It is my trust in them that make that easier. How ever if someone lies to me in order manipulate me to change my schedule at the last moment then a trust is broken. From what I am reading about schizophrenia their delusions are just as real as my so-call reality. So broken trust feels the same to everyone, and if it happens enough times from multiple people then I would start to mistrust everyone. My fiancee, when she in her states always will say ‘don’t trust egos, they are all liars’ and places she places so much emphasis on the truth.
Hi Hatty1,
She was gone most of the day and came back about 7:00 PM. She got someone to replace her tire with a spare (I didn’t know her car had one) but she damaged her alignment and the car wobbles and really should not be driven. She was sober but still was having delusions. It takes her about 3 day after drinking to get to a level of normalcy. She announce that she was leaving me because I am not pure enough, and went through a whole series of delusions, 'I was having affairs, I was killing everyone around me, i was ejecting my penis with drugs, I must be gay and she found proof of some ‘s–t on a wash cloth in my car plus some reading glass that must belong to my Asian male lover’, and my negative energy is what is making her sick. She also said she found a place to go and for me to pack her car.I read somewhere not to disagree with the delusions but put yourself in her reality. So I did put myself in her reality. Since she preached that she is the truth and she knows all things through her divine energy, I said that if she believes these things about me and she is only the truth, then by all means she needs to get away to safety as soon as possible. She does have the ability to appeal to the spiritual side of lost souls, so I assume she was telling me the truth of finding a place. I told her that I will help her pack and I loaded up her car with as many things that would fit and wished her well. Unfortunately she would appear ok enough to drive so I could not call the police when she left. She said she would send a van tomorrow to get the rest of her things. So she left at 9:00 PM. I had to work at home so I shut my phone off and had time to focus and rest. I went to bed and at 3:00 AM she was back waking me up and going into a long sermon and the set of delusions about me. She said she missed me too much and even though she was at mansion with champagne she wanted to come back to see me. I said that she really needed to get herself to safety. She was pretty drunk at that point so she kept on with loud sermon, intermixed with pleas of ‘hold me’ but at the same time saying don’t touch me your not good enough. I put on my head phones and put on the meditation music and tried to rest the best I could. Eventually she pasted out on the bed. i was able to retrieve my only working debit card from her purse the she stole and saw she charged a bunch of stuff and now I will be hit with hundred of dollars of bank fees, leaving me totally broke until Friday. When I got up latter that morning I told her that I love her but I really don’t want her here any more and that it would be best for her to get to the positive environment. I said she could could stay only if she checked into a program and I left for work.
I have never lied to my son or his medical team so I don’t consider myself “pro-lying”. I understand the need for trust and honesty in any relationship, not just with someone with sz. The problem for carers is that while the person with MI is focused on their delusions, which seem of vital importance, we are run absolutely ragged feeding them, paying the bills, replacing things they destroy, trying to COVER for them. And getting no help at all until that vital “danger point”. My son’s prodromal period lasted ten years. In that time I could have had him arrested and charged a couple of times. Even though I didn’t know what was really wrong with him, I didn’t because I knew or I felt he would not survive at all well in a prison cell and I didnt want him to end up with a criminal record. Now he is getting treatment, I am glad I suffered through that period because he has a better chance at recovery without a record. But I have no insurance, no car, no pension, no house (I am still renting). Nowadays, the analysis of sz is that it is a “biopsychosocial” condition. What carers are trying to cope with often is the complete lack of wider social support. If the person with MI has no insight EVERYTHING depends on the carer. It’s crushing. And the more compassionate the carer, the greater the burden.
Once the person with MI gains insight, everything becomes EASY. our support becomes effective. The relationship is rewarding and has pluses and minuses like any other.
You are right about not lying to the person with MI. But the carers on the board are not talking about lying to her, but about getting social support systems to do their bit. Sometimes we feel we have to do that by hook or by crook. Maybe that’s wrong but, by God, we get desperate.
You express it well Hatty - carers are definitely run ragged, and have to make many very difficult decisions, and are often kept from getting our loved ones proper treatment,and that in itself is CRUSHING.
I doubt any of us take lightly the downsides to getting our loved ones treatment against their will - I for one am always balancing that against how it will affect my relationship with my son.
I disagree. I can understand the point of view of the caregiver, because this illness is progressive. You lose time and your schizophrenia becomes more treatment resistant. I can palpably feel the agony of those involved. Hallucinations are hell from the horrible to the positive. You are being mind raped by your own mind. It is inhumane to allow it to go on any further.
We run the risk of being taken advantage of, because of our mental state. I feel like I would do anything including telling lies to get my mental state back to normal. This is a battle and we have to use all of our resources to fight.
She would be best finding a group of recovered schizophrenics who can help her over the hurdle.
To quote Trent Reznor, you’re “Down in it” so you’re not going to be able to relate or empathize. You also can’t let your job go to ruin.
Is there someplace in your area where she can meet others who’ve gone through and have overcome mental illness who may be able to share home with her?
Once she speaks to the right people, and they can show her how to cognitively accept her new understanding of life, she will begin to get a grip and may actually find her disability to be a practical skill.
Let me put it this way:
If there ever comes a time you begin seeing flashing visions, hearing voices or noticing others whom seem to be able to hear your thoughts (oddly enough even the TV & radio) you may begin questioning reality more (ie; concepts similar to what Rod Serling, Lewis Carrol, Issac Asimov and Gene Roddenberry covered ).
If you ever find yourself in such a situation gratefully accept it as you’ve been challenged to go the route of Scientists. Unfortunately most people just stop at the idea of Satanic Aliens from Planet X possessing them and they run down the street drunk and screaming.
Hi Charlie,
She really refuses to believe she can possibly do anything wrong or speak anything except the truth, and she is ‘the’ love. When she is in her normal state she still believes this but is calm and communicative (i.e. real dialog). I have watch some of the material that she adheres to and I can understand why she is so against seeking any kind of support or help.All groups are anti- doctor and medicine. For instance, one group proclaims that we are all divine and part of the source creator, and the source creator can never be sick, therefore any illness is ‘defense against the truth’ (course of miracles and promoted by Oprah). Sickness must be because you are dominated by your negative ego. Plus you can get sick my the negativity of other. Before I knew better not to debate, I would point out that if a baby gets sick before they develop the so called evil ego then what are they defending against. Her response would be one of the many sayings such as 'That’s your ego talking" or ‘Think with your heart and not your head’, or if she gets trapped then it’s ‘I deny the denial of the truth’. The other predominate philosophy is basically the law of positive attraction, if you think only good thoughts then only good things will happen. So don’t listen to anyone say anything thing is negative, i.e. shun them. I even heard one of the ministers from agape-live say ‘Don’t listen to humans, they are all liars’. So having this foundation while in a state when communication is possible, makes it almost impossible for her to seek out any kind of change. She believes she is perfect.
The latest update, For one night she didn’t drink and the next day communication was possible. I told her during that time that I can’t go on this way and her response was I am always complaining and I have no right to judge. So I just dropped it.
While I was at work yesterday she did not call, which is usually a good sign. When she did I could tell she may have started. On the way home I stopped to see my children who live near by and she happen to be going for a walk and saw me. Anytime I see my children causes problems with her (another one of the sermons is how children on manipulators and how we need to let them be). We went out to eat and she was relatively calm but preachy and then came ‘We have to communicate’ which means she will go into a long list of put downs and to which any response I would have would be promptly interrupted with another saying. After a time of ranting she then started with the same ‘Are you having an affair?’ and your medications are making you insane, but wine is OK because it natural. At that point I told her that I love her, I am not having or ever had an affair, and I no longer choose to respond at this time. Then she left the restaurant (to get wine of course) and the rest of the evening was her deep delusions, yelling, put downs, etc. and even making up some new ones. I locked my door to the bedroom, put the headphones on and went to sleep. At 3:00 AM she was pounding on the door and told me she is leaving because I was too polluted and was making her sick. This time I helped her to pack and loaded her car. She was sobering up but, put was very erratic. I agreed with her that she should not endanger herself staying with a person she believed was making her sick and for her to get to safety . I went upstairs to get ready for work and when I came back she drove off. I called 911, I change the garage door code. Later that day I told her that I cannot go on like this, she has officially move out, and she needs to seek treatment and I will support her in her efforts.
I manage to make it to work on time in-spite of all this and then I discovered she stole my laptop which belongs to the company. Now I am surely going to lose my job. She denies it of course.
I blocked her calls but she has left 15 messages, and her delusions have gotten worse. Now she says she saw me molesting children, killing animals, I now do 12 kinds of dangerous drugs.
I hope this is all over soon. I hope if she can get to normal mode and I can get my laptop back at least. Treatment for her is really questionable, but there have been much worse cases. So we can only hope.
Thank you for the hearted explanation, Toaist.
In accordance to your user name I’m pretty sure you are well aware of the concept of ‘Moderation’ which, unfortunately, is not often taught by many organized religious groups.
Most organized religions preach in Binary ( “This or That” ) and although some of their insights are sound the extremes in which they take them too are not.
I suspect that your partner has been victim many times, in the past, to jurisdiction who were in the wrong and now assumes that only she knows best.
The way I that personally work, myself, is that I don’t take my insights too much to heart just as much as I don’t take others’ too much to heart.
I only listen, compare, and then eclectically extract the small resounding truths which sound most practical in context to my current situation.
Most can only preach from their experiences and many are exposed to different ordeals. Many will suggest that “Positive Thinking” is the only answer but H.G. Wells proved that wrong in his story “The Time Machine.”
From what I’ve experienced and learned is that the problem behind most mental illness involves trying to properly balance a self-defense mechanism that can easily get out of hand.
Someone needs to speak to her to help her to understand that not all of her notions are crazy but many are dangerous without rational moderation.
ie; It is true we heal faster when not focused on the wound however some wounds are so large they may require external intervention as well as just rest and meditational therapy.
ie; Your kids may naturally encourage/manipulate you back to bio mom but that does not mean you will just up and leave.
ie; Sometimes children do happen to know better yet we shut them up before hearing them out or trying to see what is they’re seeing (some children have been forced fed foods they were later proven allergic too all the while their inner nature was fighting with their parents to quit forcing it on them thinking they were just being difficult) but that doesn’t mean they’re always self-sufficient and never need to be watched.
When religious philosophy gets to the stage of “You must never this” or “You must always that.” Those are bad religions.
I should point out, however, that what many are raised to believe as real idealism’s are often times extremist religion as well. For instance “Every man who has lost his job is because he did not try hard enough at it.”
I’ve had troubles with ‘sane’ people whom insist on old school (non religious) virtues that are no longer practical this day and age.
So being mindful of extremes vs moderation doesn’t just stop with Organized Religion.
You may need to let her hit rock bottom, on her own, before you see improvements.
At this stage, continuing to date her achieves nothing except sleepless nights, put downs, put downs towards your kids, jeopardising your employment and your other relationships (especially that with your children)…among other things. Everyone has a breaking point and your own well-being is no less important.
You may need to cut her off for a while; tell her you’re there to support her when she’s ready but for now, the situation is much too toxic. If she refuses help, your hands are tied.
I had to bend the truth slightly to get my ex admitted; he had stopped eating because he was scared of feeding the devil that lived inside him…so I finally managed to get him into hospital on account of very low body weight and dehydration (he had become a walking skeleton by that stage). While he was there, I told them them that I was not a carer and that he had nowhere to go and no one to take care of him. This was not true, I would have always been there…but I had a feeling that once they’d given him a Seroquel and rehydrated him, he would have been sent packing. This way, they took things a lot more seriously and he was admitted to a psychiatric hospital.
Yeah that’s the hardest part of it all. For instance, my mom had bipolar and never got treated for it and then it just got worse through stress and her idealism pushed her overboard. What people need to understand is that this type of illness IS dangerous when a person is in an active manic psychotic state. The system is failing for these people.
They are mostly a danger to themselves, but it’s also recklessness like driving or causing disturbances, upsetting the wrong person etc. and in LA that’s way more dangerous than a little town in WV. What if she rants like that to a criminal like it’s dangerous for her and others. The recklessness and lack of insight, the ability to be influenced is also very dangerous. When psychosis is full blown it’s toxic.
The best course of action would be to trick her or convince her to go to the ER, where she can be evaluated directly if you can do that. I’m not sure if you can though. If you write a letter or file with the court you have to be very specific in how her illness is causing imminent danger.
My dad still hasn’t been successful in getting my mom into treatment but he is coming up with new ideas lately. At this point he’s thinking of getting help from her parents and maybe divorcing, but he’s nervous because she’s manic so he can’t support her if she’s not his wife, and she doesn’t manage on her own. This leaves him with the responsibility to care for her and she despises him not because she doesn’t love him, but because she’s sick.
My dad has supported my mom to the point it breaks his heart now that he is unable to help. He can’t enable her, but he can’t talk her out of her delusions we tried that. She is fixed in her ways and has Bipolar/Manic Depressive with BPD, paranoia and delusions.
her symptoms are similar but she is an amazing person still. She has been strong for many years but never accepted or understood her illness.
I feel for you. It might be hard to love this person the way she is acting. It can be nearly impossible. In that state of mind, plus drinking, there’s a real need to be hospitalized and a support system needs to be established.
Thanks for all the support. Sometimes love means letting go and that is what my feeling is now.
She moved out yesterday morning while in one of her states. She call about me 10 times yesterday becoming more delusional each time (I didn’t answer just listen to the voice mail). She drove her car off cliff in Malibu last night, she’s ok, and was arrested for DUI. Before she was arrested she called and said that she needed a tow but her car knows how to fly, and it was all so beautiful. I told her I didn’t have the money to pay and she hung up. At 3:00 AM she left a message that she need bailed out of jail. She is being held a local sheriff station. I called and they said she was going to be released that day. I spoke to the watch commander told her of her conditions asked that they have her evaluated. The watch commander said she would speak to her and if she felt she needed evaluation she would hold her for 72 hours while that is being done. The watch commander called me later and said she could not recommend her being evaluated. They also said she had an outstanding $20000 warrant for her but would not hold her for that either. Her car is at a impound with all her possessions with my laptop and I can’t get the laptop back without her being there. I don’t know if I can get my laptop without paying the fees, which I suspect will be high. So now what? Give her the treatment ultimatum again today or she can’t sleep at my place, or throw her out on the street and give her $20… There is a women’s AA meeting tonight and perhaps I can make that a condition. I can’t get her a hotel without me being liable and she can’t get one.
Any Ideas?
I don’t know how she could be that delusional and they not recommend an evaluation… 
I don’t know what to tell you. I would think that an AA meeting while a good step is not anywhere near the treatment that she needs. You can drop her off at a women’s shelter with her things?